Norm Geisler references TrueFreethinker.com:
Apologeticspress.com's Kyle Butt references TrueFreethinker.com:
On Morality:
Atheism and Rape:
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Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link
What do you know about Michael Servetus (or, John Calvin for that matter)?
Most of us will answer, “Nothing at all” if not, “Who?!?!?!” Or may think that John Calvin is the name of that little boy that hangs out with his tiger friend Hobbs.
It is because of this that personages such as Dan Barker succeed when they rewrite history and thereby, take advantage of their audience’s ignorance.
I know that this would be a good video because in preparation for a debate with a Oneness Pentecostal, James White when to his local library and read everything they had about Michael Servetus.
This essay is copyrighted by Mariano Grinbank of the website "True Free Thinker" at www.truefreethinker.com.
It may be republished in part or in its entirety on websites, blogs, or any print media for whatever purpose (in agreement or in order to criticize it) only as long as the following conditions are met:
- Give credit to Mariano Grinbank of the website "True Free Thinker" and provide the url: www.truefreethinker.com/articles/what-do-you-know-about-michael-servetus-or-john-calvin-matter.
- Inform me as to where it is being reproduced via the comments section or use the Trackback url: http://www.truefreethinker/trackback/1569
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Calvin & Servetus
Myron Crockett (not verified) — Thu, 07/01/2010 - 10:39amMariano,
I'm a HUGE fan of your blog, and I follow avidly. As for White's attempt to deal with Barker's critique of Calvin, I think that he is the one who is not dealing with the facts very well. While I think Barker is incredibly off-base in almost everything that comes out of his mouth, he's actually right about the Calvin-Servetus affair. Calvin DID set up a theocracy in Geneva. He WAS a despot, and nothing that went on in Geneva happened without his okay. Calvin sought Servetus' death for his anti-Trinitarianism prior to his execution. Also, Calvin reveled in Servetus' death afterward. Here is a quote from Calvin to back this up:
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (from a 1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre)
White and other Calvinists really should just give up the ghost in trying to defend Calvin and other Reformers on this score. They should realize that they need not distort history just to make their theological heroes look good. Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli made invaluable contributions to the Church (though their neo-Augustinianism was off). But we've got to call these guys (and other folks) to the carpet when they were nothing more than murderous thugs. In this instance (and some others) Calvin was a liar, murderer, and a hypocrite. It's that simple. White's attempts to try to nuance these things reflect badly upon him. He should just acknowledge that Barker is right here and point to the fact that Barker--in light of his views of evolution and morality--has little basis upon which to critique the Church. I thought he was going to spin-off onto that, but he instead chose to defend his boy Calvin. Bad move.
Calvin and Servetus.
Anonymous — Tue, 08/02/2011 - 9:38pmThat Calvin's error of judgement here is inexcusable by modern standards is not debatable but I would still say that Calvin was as much a product of his times as we are of ours. Heresy was a capital offense and the removal of heretics was seen as a 'surgical strike', if you will. One cannot be affected by heresy if the heretic is not around to preach it!
Having said that to call Calvin a liar (evidence?), murderer and hypocrite is neither fair nor accurate. I would refer the reader to the account of Calvin/Servetus provided by whatloveisthis.com as it does provide the other side of the story, one that Calvin's Arminial and other detractors either ignore or are simply not aware of.
I would ask one finishing question: IF Calvin was such a despot, why was his request for a quick and merciful death (rather than being burnt at the stake) for Servetus turned down by the Genevan council? He should have been able to over-ride the council's decision if he was the all-powerful tyrant his detractors portray him to be. It is clear that Calvin did not personally HATE Servetus, a clear requirement of Jesus' definition of murder.
Calvin and Servetus
Anonymous — Wed, 02/09/2011 - 4:17amI totally agree with Myron...
Even if you mention all the historical facts as to what happened between John Calvin and Michael Servetus, it will not justify the fact that the first was instrumental in the murder of the second.