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  • "Beyond Interfaith" - The Eshim Sham Shimmy, part 1 of 5
  • "Professing Themselves To Be Wise, They Became Fools", (5 Part Series)
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  • About.com, Austin Cline, Adolf Hitler and the Continued Promulgation of Nazi Propaganda, part 1
  • Accurately Quoting Bart Ehrman, part 1
  • Adolf Hitler Was a Christian! Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?, part 1
  • Another “debate” on morality with an atheist, part 1 of 4
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  • Are Atheists Healthy, Happy, Moral, etc.?
  • Atheism - The New (Emergent) Atheists, part 1 of 4
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  • Atheists claim that “the Old Testament still applies”
  • Austin Dacey and the Psychology Today Sell Out – On Ethics, Bus Ads and Atheism, part 1
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  • Bahai Faith / Baha'i Faith: "Baha'i Propaganda in America", part 1 of 5
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  • Dialogue on the Resurrected Body, part 1
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  • Friedrich Nietzsche Nails Atheism, Again
  • From Zeitgeist to Poltergeist, Part 1 of 13
  • Fundamentalist Theologian Asks: “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” and “Why Does God Hate Amputees?”
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  • Gospel of Judas, part 1 of 7 : Introductory Musings
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  • How Billions of Demons Haunted Baloney While Avoiding Detection
  • How Many of What Did Jesus Ride Into Jerusalem? On Colts, Donkey and Asses, part 1 of 2
  • In the Beginning...Cosmology, Part I - The Pre Big Bang Scenario
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  • Jurassic Ark
  • Mark Miravalle on Mariology (or is it, Maryolarty?), part 1
  • Michael Ruse – “God is dead. Long live morality” (even though “Morality is flimflam”), part 1 of 2
  • Midwest Atheist and Friend - Considered and Refuted, part 1 of 3
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  • New Atheism - Further Evidence of Its Deleterious Effects, part 1 of 2
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  • On the Treatment of Images, part I of II
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  • Religious Science - Science of Mind - Ernest Holmes, part 1 of 13
  • Response to Christopher Hitchens “The New Commandments” in Vanity Fair, part 1
  • Rev. Dr. Mel White on Christian Homosexuality, part 1 of 21
  • Review of John Loftus, “Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains”, part 1 of 2
  • Richard Dawkins - Children in the Atheist's Den (8 Part Series)
  • Richard Dawkins : Planting God More Firmly on His Throne (10 Part Series)
  • Richard Dawkins Rules Out Abiogenesis, part 1 of 2
  • Richard Dawkins' New Book - The Evolution Delusion
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory, part 1—An Introduction
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Eucharist, part 1—Introduction
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  • Roman Catholicism – Was Peter the Rock? Was Peter the First Pope?
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  • Sam Harris “The Moral Landscape” aka “The End of Morality”, part 1 of 2
  • Sam Harris: Instigator At Large
  • Sam Harris: Let Him Who is Without Faith Cast the First Stone
  • Sam Harris: Mythunderstandings (7 Part Series)
  • Scientific Cenobites, part 1 of 9
  • The BOBA Digest
  • The Destroyed Bible – On How to Reconstruct the Bible, part 1
  • The Mad Pagan Skeptic, part 1
  • The Massimo Pigliucci vs. PZ Myers Fracas (with a little Michael De Dora thrown in), part 1
  • The Quadripartite Equine Riders, part 1 of 11
  • The Rape of Skepticism, part 1
  • Theology at the Movies, in Books and on Television, part 1 of 2
  • Trinity : God's Nature and Trinitarian Doctrine
  • Was Timothy McVeigh a God Believing Catholic and a "Christian Terrorists"? - Part 1 of Dan Barker and the Alien Rape Voyeurs
  • Was “the Problem of Evil” Solved Before it was Ever Proposed?, part 1 of 2
  • What Michael Shermer Wants, and Does Not Want, to Believe—on Pseudo-Skepticism and the Multiverse, part 1
  • Which Jesus?, Part 1 - Introduction
  • Why Freethought? (8 Part Series)
  • Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer?, part 1
  • William Lane Craig – South Africa Debates, part 1: vs. Yusuf Islam on “Identifying Jesus: Is He Man or both God and Man?”
  • “Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible,” part 1 of 3
  • “Signature in the Cell,” “Signature of Controversy” and the Signature of Pseudo-Scientific Sloth, part 1
  • “The Fatima Crusader” : True vs. Counterfeit Miracles
  • “The Jews” in the New Testament, part 1 of 4
  • Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett The Dynamic Duo of Demonstrably Deleterious Delusion, part 1 of 3
  • Oprah Winfrey - Priestess of Spirituality and Preacher of Strict Exclusivism, part 1
  • Rise of Atheism in America While the Amish Survive Only By Kidnapping Little Children, part 1 of 4
  • Scientific Cenobites - Some notes on Skepticism, part 1 of 6
  • The Godless Church of Unitarian Universalism, part 1 of 2
  • Unitarian Universalist - Condolences and Critiques, part 1 of 6
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Messiah Will Be "The LORD", part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish and Christian? Is Messianic Judaism Possible?, part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Biblical Messianic Symbolism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Proselytism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Reinterpretation of Ancient Teachings, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Isaiah 9 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : the Psalm 22 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Evilbible - the Polemical Saga Continues, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Does Christianity Corrupt the Old Testament? And: On the Memra, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish Messianic Concepts, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, EvilBible.com, "Theists Suck" and Christians are Hypocrites, part 1 of 6
  • Atheism, Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible, and EvilBible.com, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, the Bible, Rape, EvilBible.com and Dan Barker, part 1 of 6

Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link

Joseph Smith as the second Muhammad – “Joseph Smith or the sword!”

Oft times, a denial is the best evidence in favor of the original accusation. Such was the case when the pro-Mormon (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) site Juvenile Instructor attempted to deal with the issue of Joseph Smith likening himself to Islam’s Muhammad and correlated their proselytizing via the sword.
Juvenile Instructor took umbrage at a Jack Chick publication titled, “The Enchanter” (Chick provided documentation for his claims at this link).

[The publication] contains a picture of Joseph Smith, dressed in full Nauvoo Legion attire, saying:

“If the people let us alone, we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion with the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood…from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a 2nd Muhammad, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Al-Qur’an or the sword.’ So shall it be with us — ‘Joseph Smith or the sword!’ (See History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167).” [emphasis in original]

Juvenile Instructor’s (hereinafter JI) main concern seems to be that the publication places Joseph Smith in Illinois at the time but, apparently, he was not there but in Missouri (in 1838 AD).
JI notes that “The quote is taken from Thomas B. Marsh’s October 24, 1838 affidavit…corroborated by three other individuals, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, George Walter, and partially by a fourth, Abner Scovil.” Marsh was the president of the Mormon Quorum of the Twelve. As we will see, for JI, it all comes down to not wanting to believe the validity of the statement due to incredulity.

mormon, joseph smith.jpg

mormon, joseph smith._0.jpg
Well, their artwork, especially the coloring,
could use some improvements.
But let us consider the substance

For now, JI notes that Joseph Smith claimed that some “apostates from this Church” were “reporting false stories, and statements”1 and that “We will never know with certainty if Smith made this statement or not.”
JI then states “To my knowledge, Marsh, Hinkle, Corrill, Walter, and Scovil were the only individuals that recorded the quote, and the first three had left the Church prior to making their statements.”

Moreover, “Mormon leaders declared in 1838 that they would not be driven again, and therefore advocated violent counter-measures. Given this context, it is possible that Smith made some kind of reference to violent resistance and may have compared himself to the Muslim prophet. But there is no evidence that Smith had similar sentiments in Nauvoo” and JI again takes issue with Jack Chick mis-placing the scene. So, again, the main complain it geography and chronology.

JI was even kind enough to provide the statements of Marsh, Hinkle, Corrill, Walter and Scovil but before getting to those; that the issue is incredulity and geography/chronology is further reinforced by what the JI author wrote in response to a comment,

I’m trying to say that, given the context in Missouri, JS could have compared himself to Muhammad. But I can’t see him making such a declaration either before, or after, the summer/fall of 1838.
If you can provide compelling evidence that JS would have done this throughout his life, have at it.

So, another affirmation in the form of a denial. Also, note that now the goal post has been moved; we begin with Joseph Smith making the statements and are now challenged to “provide compelling evidence,” mind you, “that JS would have done this throughout his life.”
But why? Why does referencing a statement attested by four people fail if it could not be said to reflect Joseph Smith’s lifelong character? Is it because a statement so uncharacteristic of him would be evidence that the statement is not his own?

Note that I have written a comparison of Jesus and Muhammad. Regardless of the second Muhammad statement; others have written fascinating comparisons between Joseph Smith and Muhammad (see Islamic And Mormonism Similarities and Joseph Smith and Muhammad.. The Similarities for two examples of this). The difference is that Jesus and Muhammad were nothing alike while Joseph Smith and Muhammad were much alike.

Let us consider the four statements before moving on (the footnotes are from JI):

Thomas B. Marsh:

I have heard the prophet say that he should yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; that if he was not let alone he would be a second Mahomet to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean; that like Mahomet, whose motto, in treating for peace, was “the Alcoran or the Sword,” so should it be eventually with us, “Joseph Smith or the Sword.” These last statements were made during the last summer.2

George M. Hinkle:

I have heard Joseph Smith, jr. say that he believed Mahomet was a good man; that the Koran was not a true thing, but the world belied Mohamet, as they had belied him, and that Mahomet was a true prophet.3

John Corrill:

In the last, or in some public meeting, Joseph Smith, jr., said: if the people would let us alone, we would preach the gospel to them in peace; but, if they came on us to molest us, we would establish our religion by the sword; and that he would become to this generation a second Mahomet.4

George Walter:

Soon after the dissenters were driven away from Caldwell county, I was in Far-West, in Corill’s [Corrill's] store, perhaps the last of June last, and heard Joseph Smith, jun., say, that he believed Mahomet was an inspired man, and had done a great deal of good, and that he intended to take the same course Mahomet did; that if the people would let him alone, he would, after a while, die a natural death; but if they did not, he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the State of Maine.
He further said, that he had, or would have, (the witness does not-remember which,) as regular an inquisition as ever was established, and as good a set of inquisitors as ever was. This conversation was had when talking about the dissenters.5

Abner Scovil:

In the latter part of June last, I heard Joseph Smith, jun., say, that if the people would let him alone, he would conquer them by the sword of the spirit; but if they would not, he would beat the plough-shares into swords, and their pruning-hooks into spears, and conquer them he would.6

As it turns out, on the same day that Marsh gave his affidavit Orson Hyde, a Mormon Apostle, swore to a similar statement and noted, “The most of the statements in the foregoing disclosure I know to be true; the remainder I believe to be true.”

Mormon historian Richard Van Wagoner wrote:

On 18 October, however, Mormon raiders were able to ride out. Apostle David W. Patten, known by his Danite tide “Captain Fearnought,” descended on Gallatin with a large contingent of men and, after plundering the small village, burned most of it to the ground. Then the marauders pillaged the Daviess County countryside, depositing their spoils, which they termed “consecrated property,” in the bishop's storehouse at Diahman.7

Thomas B. Marsh defined “Danites” as Mormons “who have taken an oath to support the heads of the Church in all things that they say or do, whether right or wrong.” He also mentions the “Destruction Company” whose purpose was “burning and destroying.”

Joseph Smith published a sermon by associate Sidney Rigdon in which was stated, in part:

And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seal of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.

Consider also that Joseph Smith proposed that which has come to be known as the “Blood Atonement.”
This pertains to those who were considered to have perpetrated actions against Mormons; they were to have their blood shed as a means of remission of sin. The “Danites” aka “Avenging Angels” were in charge of carrying out the atonement and employed the concept during the battle against the Missourians.
Also, when Orrin Porter Rockwell attempted to assassinate Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs; he appalled to the “Blood Atonement” as an excuse (or, reason).8

As Jesus was dying, He said the following of those who rejoiced at His death, “Forgive them father, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34).
Joseph Smith himself was shot to death even whilst shooting others to death—he was in the midst of a gun fight (and Mormons refer to this as “martyrdom”: see The death of the prophets ).

Joseph Smith, gun, mormon.jpg

After His death Jesus’ followers lived peaceful lives; preaching love and forgiveness, even whilst being persecuted.
After his death Joseph Smith’s followers too an “Oath of Vengeance” on the anniversary of his death. This was to serve as a prayer to God for vengeance those involved in his death. That this occurred a year after the fact demonstrates that it was not a merely heat of the moment inspired statement. In fact, a half year after the “Oath of Vengeance” was conceived it actually became a part of the Mormon temple endowment ceremony.9
The Oath was appealed to as justification for various murders such as those of the people who had murdered Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.10

Overall, these merely example tend to demonstrated a Mormon history peppered with vengeance, aggression, strife and violence.

  1. 1. JS, Journal, [July 1838], in Dean C. Jessee, ed., The Papers of Joseph Smith, vol. 2, Journal, 1832-1842 (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1992), 255-56
  2. 2. Affidavit of Thomas B. Marsh, Richmond, Missouri, October 24, 1838, Document Containing the Correspondence, Orders, &C. in Relation to the Disturbances with the Mormons; and the Evidence Given Before the Hon. Austin A. King, Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, at the Court-House in Richmond, in a Criminal Court of Inquiry, Begun November 12, 1838, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Others for High Treason and Other Crimes Against the State (Fayette, Missouri: Boon’s Lick Democrat, 1841), 58-59.
    Matt W. points out that in the footnote of HC 3:167-68, Roberts inserted a John Taylor sermon, given apparently in the late 1870s, in which Taylor denied the contents of Marsh’s affidavit. Aside from the fact that this sermon was given forty years after the alleged statement was made in 1838, it should also be noted that the only thing that Taylor specifically repudiates in Marsh’s affidavit is his statement on the Danites. The question of whether or not Danites existed, however, has long been settled and even completely orthodox Mormon scholars do not dispute this (See Baugh, “A Call to Arms,” 36-43). The question of why Taylor would deny that the Danites existed, when it’s clear that they did, is unfortunately too complex to address here.
  3. 3. Testimony of George M. Hinkle, Document, 128
  4. 4. Testimony of John Corrill, Document, 111
  5. 5. Testimony of George Walter, in James H. Hunt, Mormonism: Embracing the Origin, Rise and Progress of the Sect, with an Examination of the Book of Mormon; Also, Their Troubles in Missouri, and Final expulsion from the State; With and Appendix, giving an Account of the Late Disturbances in Illinois, Which Resulted in the Death of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, by G. W. Westbrook. (St. Louis, IL: Ustick & Davies, 1844), 217. Hat tip to Justin for pointing this account out to me. Like Hinkle and Corrill, Walter was witness for the state of Missouri at the November 1838 hearing where JS was tried for treason. For unknown reasons, Walter’s testimony was not included in the 1841 printed compilation of evidence and documents (see note #1), but was printed with in Hunt’s 1844 history. The manuscript hearing record containing all the testimony is located in the archives at the University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri
  6. 6. Testimony of Abner Scovil, in Hunt, Mormonism, 227. Like Walter’s testimony, Scovil’s was also omitted from the 1841 printing but was included in Hunt’s history
  7. 7. Sidney Rigdon, Portrait of Religious Excess, p. 234
  8. 8. D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), pp. 110-113
  9. 9. Quinn, p. 179
  10. 10. Quinn, pp. 180-181

    Additionally: Brigham's Destroying Angel: Chapter V and The Life and Confessions of John D. Lee-Chapter XVIII & XIX contain information on these matter in general.

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A good chuckle...

Anonymous — Thu, 04/07/2011 - 9:14am

This story was actually comical to me. I did crack a smile, seriously. :) The picture of Joseph Smith is particularly silly.

Another case of someone trying to tell LDS people what they believe and not the other way around. Anyone who has studied Joseph Smith in any depth will know that he had plenty of individuals that where trying anything possible to get rid of them, certainly by bringing false statements that he made. This all culminated in his being martyred by a mob with faces painted black while Joseph Smith was imprisoned on trumped up charges.

Joseph Smith was constantly brought to trial and repeatedly released from false charges, except in instances where on the undeveloped frontier there were incompetent or corrupt judges, or downright evil - like the instance when Governor Boggs of Illinois proclaimed an extermination order against the Saints. (the Saints - who might I add were constantly mobbed, beaten, raped, murdered, tarred and feathered, etc. - easily documented. I had one relative that was clubbed in the back of the head and died from a mob in Missouri) Being a large voting block that usually voted together, and being against slavery made the Saints a hated bunch from many Southerners for a state that was to decide the balance of slavery in America.

Latter-Day Saints believe that if one attempts to shine a light on evil, evil will try to bring you down by any means possible. Think of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and his persecutors, or the original 12 apostles all martyred for the cause of Christianity.

  • reply

a mormon referring to light?

Anonymous — Fri, 04/15/2011 - 7:02am

after all my studies about mormonism and their teachings, how dare you being a mormon make references to light and Jesus Christ in your write-up about joseph smith and what he stands for? Is there anything light or godly about mormonism? For example, God created all humans, being His most honourable creation, to be accepted, honoured and respected yet your so called "prophet" teaches since the 1830s that some particular races are cursed by God, that only the white race, which makes up a great percentage of your movement, are blessed and superior to all others.This is heresy and unbiblical. What is light and jesus about this? You and your group are simply from the DEVIL. YOU WILL ALL GO TO SATAN AND HELL JUST LIKE YOUR LEADER DID (I BELIEVE), IF U ALL DO NOT REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE TRUE GOD. Yet you go to Africa and other non-white continents to win converts! YOU ARE ALL SUCH GREAT HYPOCRATES..

  • reply

hmm, someone is an angry hypocrite, calling others hypocrites!

Anonymous — Fri, 08/19/2011 - 10:06am

Perhaps, Ms/Mr Anonymous, you should see deeper than your fear of Mr Joseph Smith's religion will allow you to. You can find out anywhere decent, that the reason the 'Mormons' were kicked out of Missouri and bashed and raped etc, was for the very reason that Mormons were encouraging the upholding of dignity of their 'black' brothers and sisters. It is a real shame that various so called Christian religions use lies to try to villify the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whereas I have never seen the LDS Church EVER try to do that to ANY church, or religion.
Go, educate yourself about truth, instead of believing what 'people' have told you or about what you have read from biased sources. perhaps you will then come across Joseph Smith's wonderful letter, in which he denounced the treatment of 'blacks' in the US at that time. In FACT- ever wondered why Utah wasn't in the Civil War, siding with the Southern States?! Ask yourself that question. Then, scratch your head while reading this- that Joseph Smith gave the Priesthood HIMSELF, to Elijah Abel, a 'black' man...amongst others.
Then, realise the truth that the reason the 'blacks' were not given the Priesthood after Joseph's death, is because of one thing- the unworthiness of the whites at that time, many of whom were racist still and trying to embrace the Gospel in the wild wild west. Isnt it common sense to observe that the ban on 'blacks' and priesthood ended when the rest of the US were finally put thru the fire of Civil Rights?! Funny that you should talk about the LDS and 'blacks' when the whole country wouldnt even let these brothers and sisters sit on the same part of the bus, or eat in the same restaurants!! Especially in the south (hmm, no wonder the SOUTHERN baptists have such a big problem with the Mormons...).
So, before you stand on your soapbox and call anyone a hypocrite and tell them, like a god that you think yourself to be, that they are going to hell, think about you, think about your ancestors and their rascist beliefs (especially if you are an American), and think about your self righteousness.
But most of all, think about the truth. For, the way I see it, the viciousness towards the Mormons, who really are a wonderful people who do not brag about who/what they are, and what they do, that same viciousness was also directed to the Saviour and His people. Your words sound so familiar...its just missing the call to 'CRUCIFY HIM! CRUCIFY HIM!'...which your thirst for Mormon blood no doubt is screaming. Lucky for you the Mormons will never tell YOU that you will go to hell...they're far too decent for that. AND, unlike you, they just let the truth speak for itself.

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