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Apologetics Examiner

  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 5
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #3
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  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 3
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #2
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 2
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 2
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #1
  • “Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think”
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 1
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  • "Beyond Interfaith" - The Eshim Sham Shimmy, part 1 of 5
  • "Professing Themselves To Be Wise, They Became Fools", (5 Part Series)
  • "The Lost Tomb of Jesus", part 1 of 10
  • About.com, Austin Cline, Adolf Hitler and the Continued Promulgation of Nazi Propaganda, part 1
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  • Fundamentalist Theologian Asks: “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” and “Why Does God Hate Amputees?”
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  • Gospel of Judas, part 1 of 7 : Introductory Musings
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  • How Billions of Demons Haunted Baloney While Avoiding Detection
  • How Many of What Did Jesus Ride Into Jerusalem? On Colts, Donkey and Asses, part 1 of 2
  • In the Beginning...Cosmology, Part I - The Pre Big Bang Scenario
  • Inhumane Humanism – Atheist Propaganda Thinly Disguised, part 1
  • Is Dan Barker Self Loathing?, part 1 of 2
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  • Is Richard Dawkins a Fundamentalist? (9 Part Series)
  • Is the Bible Skeptical About Miracles?
  • Islam / Muslim : Muhammad and Jesus, part 1 of 10
  • James Randi - the Amazing Atheist, part 1 of 2
  • Jehovah's Witnesses and the Physical Resurrection - Objections and Responses, part 1 of 2
  • Jewish / Judaism : One Messiah or Two Messiahs?, part 1 of 2
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Suffering of the Servant, part 1 of 7
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Suffering Servant According to Isaiah, part 1
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Truth is Veiled - For a Time, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 1 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 2 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 3 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 4 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 5 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 6 of 7
    • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 7 of 7
  • Jewish / Judaism : Will the Messiah Institute New Commandments?, part 1 of 7
  • Jurassic Ark
  • Mark Miravalle on Mariology (or is it, Maryolarty?), part 1
  • Michael Ruse – “God is dead. Long live morality” (even though “Morality is flimflam”), part 1 of 2
  • Midwest Atheist and Friend - Considered and Refuted, part 1 of 3
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  • On the Treatment of Images, part I of II
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  • Positive Atheism - Cliff Walker : Weak Bible Week Poster, part 1 of 7
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  • Response to Christopher Hitchens “The New Commandments” in Vanity Fair, part 1
  • Rev. Dr. Mel White on Christian Homosexuality, part 1 of 21
  • Review of John Loftus, “Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains”, part 1 of 2
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  • Richard Dawkins Rules Out Abiogenesis, part 1 of 2
  • Richard Dawkins' New Book - The Evolution Delusion
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory, part 1—An Introduction
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Eucharist, part 1—Introduction
  • Roman Catholic Maryology: Mary in Roman Catholicism, part 1 - Introduction
  • Roman Catholicism and the Bible - Sola Scriptura vs. Sola Ecclesia, part 1 of 3
  • Roman Catholicism – Was Peter the Rock? Was Peter the First Pope?
  • Sam Harris - Myth Buster or Myth Maker? (10 Part Series)
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  • The Quadripartite Equine Riders, part 1 of 11
  • The Rape of Skepticism, part 1
  • Theology at the Movies, in Books and on Television, part 1 of 2
  • Trinity : God's Nature and Trinitarian Doctrine
  • Was Timothy McVeigh a God Believing Catholic and a "Christian Terrorists"? - Part 1 of Dan Barker and the Alien Rape Voyeurs
  • Was “the Problem of Evil” Solved Before it was Ever Proposed?, part 1 of 2
  • What Michael Shermer Wants, and Does Not Want, to Believe—on Pseudo-Skepticism and the Multiverse, part 1
  • Which Jesus?, Part 1 - Introduction
  • Why Freethought? (8 Part Series)
  • Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer?, part 1
  • William Lane Craig – South Africa Debates, part 1: vs. Yusuf Islam on “Identifying Jesus: Is He Man or both God and Man?”
  • “Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible,” part 1 of 3
  • “Signature in the Cell,” “Signature of Controversy” and the Signature of Pseudo-Scientific Sloth, part 1
  • “The Fatima Crusader” : True vs. Counterfeit Miracles
  • “The Jews” in the New Testament, part 1 of 4
  • Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett The Dynamic Duo of Demonstrably Deleterious Delusion, part 1 of 3
  • Oprah Winfrey - Priestess of Spirituality and Preacher of Strict Exclusivism, part 1
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  • Scientific Cenobites - Some notes on Skepticism, part 1 of 6
  • The Godless Church of Unitarian Universalism, part 1 of 2
  • Unitarian Universalist - Condolences and Critiques, part 1 of 6
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Messiah Will Be "The LORD", part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish and Christian? Is Messianic Judaism Possible?, part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Biblical Messianic Symbolism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Proselytism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Reinterpretation of Ancient Teachings, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Isaiah 9 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : the Psalm 22 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Evilbible - the Polemical Saga Continues, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Does Christianity Corrupt the Old Testament? And: On the Memra, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish Messianic Concepts, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, EvilBible.com, "Theists Suck" and Christians are Hypocrites, part 1 of 6
  • Atheism, Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible, and EvilBible.com, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, the Bible, Rape, EvilBible.com and Dan Barker, part 1 of 6

Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link

Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 4 of 7

A publication titled "Issues" points out four facts about the Messiah,

"FACT ONE: The Messiah's appearance was locked into a fixed time.
FACT TWO: that fixed time was while the Second Temple was still standing.
FACT THREE: the Messiah had to come from a specific lineage that was only verifiable through the Temple records.
And the FOURTH STARTLING FACT is that the Messiah had to die a violent death. The details of these facts together present some of the strongest evidence that he has in fact already come."

We will now glean certain highlights from the six-page article. We begin by quoting Daniel the prophet and letting the article takes where it may:

"'_that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.' (Daniel 9:25)
The 'clock' on these 69 'weeks' (units of seven years) began ticking when Artaxerxes issued a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild the Temple and restore the holy city of Jerusalem (see Nehemiah 2:1-8). While other decrees went forth, this was the only one that involved both the Temple and Jerusalem.
History records this took place in Nisan (March/April) of 444 B.C.E. That would mean the Messiah would appear by 33 C.E. History does not record anyone, other than Y'shua (Jesus), who was from that time period and claimed to be the Messiah."

In this portion of the article we are referred to a sidebar on this timeline that points out that 69 X 7 X 360 = 173,880 days. (360 being the number of days in a Jewish calendar year) March 5, 444 BC plus 173, 880 days = March 30, 33 AD.

As the article continues we again hear from Daniel:

"'_the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary' (v.26). We know that occurred when Titus' Roman legions marched on Jerusalem in 70 C.E., destroying both the city and the Temple. The Talmud teaches that at that time people believed that the Messiah had already come. But His appearance was concealed from the Jews until they were rendered more worthy of His appearance.

Other passages support the understanding that Messiah would come while the Temple was still standing. For example, the rabbis recognized that Psalm 118 would be sung to the Messiah when he arrived. 'Hoshienu-Save now, I pray, O LORD; O LORD, I pray, send now prosperity. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! We have blessed you from the house of the LORD (vv.25,26)_

And Malachi confirmed it: 'Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his Temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come' (3:1). Twelfth century Jewish scholar, Rabbi David Kimchi, referred to the Malachi verse, saying, 'The Lord, the angel of the covenant, is the Messiah.'_'The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.' (Genesis 49:10) According to the book of Ezra (1:5-8), Judah's position was maintained throughout the 70 years' captivity in Babylon.

It was also intact back in the Land, until the Romans made the Kingdom of Judah a Roman province. At that time the Sanhedrin was stripped of its authority and, according to Josephus, they [the members of the Sanhedrin] 'covered their heads with ashes and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming, 'Who unto us, for the scepter has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come.'' While there was a provincial government in place, about 50 years later (in 70 C.E.) that too ended_"

Regarding the prophesied lineage of the Messiah from Judah and David in particular the article states:

"Proof of such lineage was destroyed when the Temple was sacked. And while we do not have the Temple records, we do have the record of Y'shua's family tree in the accounts of his life by both Luke and Matthew.
They both identify that he is from the house of David. We don't know anyone else who lived at that time and claimed to be the Messiah, who is descended from the tribe of Judah and the house of David, apart from Y'shua_
The Daniel prophecy (v.26) says that after the seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, the Messiah would be cut off, but not for himself. This phrase 'cut off' meant to be killed or die a violent death. Some of the Talmudic rabbis understood this: 'In Daniel is delivered to us the end [the time of His appearance and death-Rabbi Jarchi] of the Messiah.'"

The article wraps it up by stating that if Daniel was right then the Messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple, before 70 AD:

"That means we have to admit that Messiah has already come. And if he's already come, then we will have to deal with him as the one who has come. That leaves very little wiggle room-an uneasy state of being for most of us. Maybe that's why some might choose to be agnostics.
Maybe that's why some might not want to know that God exists, because such knowledge would make a claim on their lives. Could that be why many people are satisfied to allow the notion of God to remain a vague feeling until such time as they see a need for him? However, our vague feelings about God do not mean that God is a vague being. What if he really has communicated to us in very specific ways?"1

Talmud-Sanhedrin 97b,

"Perish all those who calculate the end, for men will say, since the predicted end is here and the Messiah has not come, he will never come!" and "All the predestined dates for redemption (the coming of Messiah) have passed and the matter now depends only on the repentance and good deeds."

  1. 1. Susan Perlman, Four Startling Facts About the Identity of the Messiah, Issues, A Messianic Jewish Perspective (P.O. Box 424885, San Francisco, CA., 2000), Vol. 13-2. This article refers us to: John Ankerberg, The Case for Jesus the Messiah. Franz Delitzsch and Paton Gloag, The Messiahship of Christ, Part Two. Risto Santala, The Messiah in the Old Testament in Light of Rabbinical Writings. Josephus' Antiquities 17, Ch. 13:1-5. David Brickner, Future Hope.

This essay is copyrighted by Mariano of the "Life and Doctrine" blog at http://lifeanddoctrine.blogspot.com
It may be republished in part or in its entirety on websites, blogs, or any print media for whatever purpose-in agreement or in order to criticize it-only as long as the following conditions are met:
1) Give credit to "Mariano of the 'Life and Doctrine' blog at http://lifeanddoctrine.blogspot.com
2) Inform me as to which essay is being reproduced and where it is being reproduced via the comments section at this link

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This essay is copyrighted by Mariano Grinbank of the website "True Free Thinker" at www.truefreethinker.com.

It may be republished in part or in its entirety on websites, blogs, or any print media for whatever purpose (in agreement or in order to criticize it) only as long as the following conditions are met:

  1. Give credit to Mariano Grinbank of the website "True Free Thinker" and provide the url: www.truefreethinker.com/articles/jewish-judaism-when-was-messiah-expected-part-4-7.
  2. Inform me as to where it is being reproduced via the comments section or use the Trackback url: http://www.truefreethinker/trackback/1091

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