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Apologetics Examiner

  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 5
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #3
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 4
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 3
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #2
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 2
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 2
  • Simplicity and complexity: Darwinism vs. Creationism & Intelligent Design, #1
  • “Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think”
  • Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne on free will, part 1
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Book navigation

  • "Beyond Interfaith" - The Eshim Sham Shimmy, part 1 of 5
  • "Professing Themselves To Be Wise, They Became Fools", (5 Part Series)
  • "The Lost Tomb of Jesus", part 1 of 10
  • About.com, Austin Cline, Adolf Hitler and the Continued Promulgation of Nazi Propaganda, part 1
  • Accurately Quoting Bart Ehrman, part 1
  • Adolf Hitler Was a Christian! Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?, part 1
  • Another “debate” on morality with an atheist, part 1 of 4
  • Answering Atheism - audio, page 1 of 3
  • Are Atheists Healthy, Happy, Moral, etc.?
  • Atheism - The New (Emergent) Atheists, part 1 of 4
  • Atheism and Carl Sagan's God, part 1 of 2
  • Atheism and Creation Ministries International - Preparatoria
  • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 1
    • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 2 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Massimo Pigliucci
    • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 3 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Richard Dawkins
  • Atheist and Darwinian Science and Story Telling, part 1 of 9
  • Atheists claim that “the Old Testament still applies”
  • Austin Dacey and the Psychology Today Sell Out – On Ethics, Bus Ads and Atheism, part 1
  • Bahai Faith / Baha'i Faith : Physical Resurrection, Part 1 of 2
  • Bahai Faith / Baha'i Faith: "Baha'i Propaganda in America", part 1 of 5
  • Bahai Faith / Baha'i Faith: The Case of the Traveller, Part 1 of 3
  • Bart Ehrman, Interrupted - on the Bible and Christianity
  • Bart Ehrman’s Millions and Millions of Variants, part 1 of 2
  • Bart Ehrman’s Problem, part 1
  • Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam, Salman Rushdie and the Satanic Verses fatwa, part 1
  • Christopher Hitchens - Night at the Royal Ontario Museum
  • Christopher Hitchens - Theological Fallacies and Miscomprehensions, part I of III
  • Christopher Hitchens : The Challenges, part I of III
  • Dan Barker - Scriptural Misinterpretations and Misapplications, part 1 of 14
  • Dan Barker and Bertrand Russell: The Dynamic Duo of Demonstrably Deleterious Delusion (8 Part Series)
  • Dan Barker and Neo-Pagan Atheism
  • Dan Brown - The Da Vinci Code, part 1 of 4 : Thank God for "The Da Vinci Code" !!!
  • Darwin's Dilemma
  • Debate: "The Bodily Assumption of Mary" Robert Sungenis vs. James White
  • Dialogue on the Resurrected Body, part 1
  • Does the Bible and its God Condone Slavery?
  • ECKANKAR, Religion of the Light and Sound of God, part 1
  • ExChristian.Net Has Been X’d, part 1
  • Freethought Without Forethought? (8 Part Series)
  • Friedrich Nietzsche Nails Atheism, Again
  • From Zeitgeist to Poltergeist, Part 1 of 13
  • Fundamentalist Theologian Asks: “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” and “Why Does God Hate Amputees?”
  • God Took Human Form (Before the Time of Jesus), part 1 of 5
  • Gospel of Judas, part 1 of 7 : Introductory Musings
  • Hinduism / Hare Krishna / Krishna Consciousness, part 1 of 10
  • Homosexuality, Christianity, the Bible, Larry King, Jennifer Knapp, Ted Haggard and Bob Botsford, part 1
  • How Billions of Demons Haunted Baloney While Avoiding Detection
  • How Many of What Did Jesus Ride Into Jerusalem? On Colts, Donkey and Asses, part 1 of 2
  • In the Beginning...Cosmology, Part I - The Pre Big Bang Scenario
  • Inhumane Humanism – Atheist Propaganda Thinly Disguised, part 1
  • Is Dan Barker Self Loathing?, part 1 of 2
  • Is PZ Myers establishing a church? Behold his new “wonderful revelation,” part 1 of 2
  • Is Richard Dawkins a Fundamentalist? (9 Part Series)
  • Is the Bible Skeptical About Miracles?
  • Islam / Muslim : Muhammad and Jesus, part 1 of 10
  • James Randi - the Amazing Atheist, part 1 of 2
  • Jehovah's Witnesses and the Physical Resurrection - Objections and Responses, part 1 of 2
  • Jewish / Judaism : One Messiah or Two Messiahs?, part 1 of 2
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Suffering of the Servant, part 1 of 7
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Suffering Servant According to Isaiah, part 1
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Truth is Veiled - For a Time, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : When Was the Messiah Expected?, part 1 of 7
  • Jewish / Judaism : Will the Messiah Institute New Commandments?, part 1 of 7
  • Jurassic Ark
  • Mark Miravalle on Mariology (or is it, Maryolarty?), part 1
  • Michael Ruse – “God is dead. Long live morality” (even though “Morality is flimflam”), part 1 of 2
  • Midwest Atheist and Friend - Considered and Refuted, part 1 of 3
  • New Age : The Melchizedek Method, part 1 of 10
  • New Atheism - Further Evidence of Its Deleterious Effects, part 1 of 2
  • On the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorns, et al., part 1 of 4
  • On the Treatment of Images, part I of II
  • Positive Atheism - Cliff Walker : Relative Ethics and Absolute Condemnations, part 1 of 9
  • Positive Atheism - Cliff Walker : Weak Bible Week Poster, part 1 of 7
  • PZ Myers – Contra Mitch Daniels and Pro Positive Affirmation of God’s Non-Existence, part 1 of 2
  • Quentin Smith - The Gratuitous Fallacy, part I of V
  • Religious Science - Science of Mind - Ernest Holmes, part 1 of 13
  • Response to Christopher Hitchens “The New Commandments” in Vanity Fair, part 1
  • Rev. Dr. Mel White on Christian Homosexuality, part 1 of 21
  • Review of John Loftus, “Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains”, part 1 of 2
  • Richard Dawkins - Children in the Atheist's Den (8 Part Series)
  • Richard Dawkins : Planting God More Firmly on His Throne (10 Part Series)
  • Richard Dawkins Rules Out Abiogenesis, part 1 of 2
  • Richard Dawkins' New Book - The Evolution Delusion
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory, part 1—An Introduction
  • Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Eucharist, part 1—Introduction
  • Roman Catholic Maryology: Mary in Roman Catholicism, part 1 - Introduction
  • Roman Catholicism and the Bible - Sola Scriptura vs. Sola Ecclesia, part 1 of 3
  • Roman Catholicism – Was Peter the Rock? Was Peter the First Pope?
  • Sam Harris - Myth Buster or Myth Maker? (10 Part Series)
  • Sam Harris “The Moral Landscape” aka “The End of Morality”, part 1 of 2
  • Sam Harris: Instigator At Large
  • Sam Harris: Let Him Who is Without Faith Cast the First Stone
  • Sam Harris: Mythunderstandings (7 Part Series)
  • Scientific Cenobites, part 1 of 9
  • The BOBA Digest
  • The Destroyed Bible – On How to Reconstruct the Bible, part 1
  • The Mad Pagan Skeptic, part 1
  • The Massimo Pigliucci vs. PZ Myers Fracas (with a little Michael De Dora thrown in), part 1
  • The Quadripartite Equine Riders, part 1 of 11
  • The Rape of Skepticism, part 1
  • Theology at the Movies, in Books and on Television, part 1 of 2
  • Trinity : God's Nature and Trinitarian Doctrine
  • Was Timothy McVeigh a God Believing Catholic and a "Christian Terrorists"? - Part 1 of Dan Barker and the Alien Rape Voyeurs
  • Was “the Problem of Evil” Solved Before it was Ever Proposed?, part 1 of 2
  • What Michael Shermer Wants, and Does Not Want, to Believe—on Pseudo-Skepticism and the Multiverse, part 1
  • Which Jesus?, Part 1 - Introduction
  • Why Freethought? (8 Part Series)
  • Will Richard Dawkins Debate Stephen Meyer?, part 1
  • William Lane Craig – South Africa Debates, part 1: vs. Yusuf Islam on “Identifying Jesus: Is He Man or both God and Man?”
  • “Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible,” part 1 of 3
  • “Signature in the Cell,” “Signature of Controversy” and the Signature of Pseudo-Scientific Sloth, part 1
  • “The Fatima Crusader” : True vs. Counterfeit Miracles
  • “The Jews” in the New Testament, part 1 of 4
  • Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett The Dynamic Duo of Demonstrably Deleterious Delusion, part 1 of 3
  • Oprah Winfrey - Priestess of Spirituality and Preacher of Strict Exclusivism, part 1
  • Rise of Atheism in America While the Amish Survive Only By Kidnapping Little Children, part 1 of 4
  • Scientific Cenobites - Some notes on Skepticism, part 1 of 6
  • The Godless Church of Unitarian Universalism, part 1 of 2
  • Unitarian Universalist - Condolences and Critiques, part 1 of 6
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Messiah Will Be "The LORD", part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish and Christian? Is Messianic Judaism Possible?, part 1 of 3
  • Jewish / Judaism : Biblical Messianic Symbolism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Proselytism, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : Reinterpretation of Ancient Teachings, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : The Isaiah 9 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Jewish / Judaism : the Psalm 22 Controversy, part 1 of 4
  • Evilbible - the Polemical Saga Continues, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Does Christianity Corrupt the Old Testament? And: On the Memra, part 1 of 5
  • Jewish / Judaism : Jewish Messianic Concepts, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, EvilBible.com, "Theists Suck" and Christians are Hypocrites, part 1 of 6
  • Atheism, Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible, and EvilBible.com, part 1 of 5
  • Atheism, the Bible, Rape, EvilBible.com and Dan Barker, part 1 of 6

Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link

Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 1

One of the most ubiquitously employed atheist talking point is to basically use the word “atheism” and “science” in the same sentence whilst expressing anything at all related in any way to any discussion of atheism / theism (same goes for “atheism” and “evolution” but that is another issue).

Yet, what is the relation of atheism with science or science with atheism?

I have already determined that science has nothing to offer atheism in the post Omni-Science. Yet, it seemed appropriate to focus on the specific question of what is the conclusion of having many atheists claim that they base their atheism on science or that science implies an atheistic universe.

What is science? There are many definitions. Within the comments section of Atheism is Dead—which is True Freethinker’s predecessor—an atheist even included feelings in their definition of science. There is science as method, science as profession, science as co-opted by atheism, science as supposed know it all, science as only providing the best guess thus far, science as an operational process, science as a body of knowledge, science as a thing to be manipulated via schools of thought and professional rivalries, forensic science, hard science, soft science, etc., etc., etc.[1]

Let us consider common definitions of what people generally mean by “science” particularly within our context: science denotes a series of fields of study which apply certain methods—such as observation, testability and repeatable experimentation—which seek to ascertain, to the best of our current ability, the workings of the physical world / nature / the material realm. True science functions within limits, admits these limitations and does not pretend to go beyond them.

Many great and influential scientists, those who established the methods and fields of science in the first place, were theists of one sort or another—mostly from the Judeo-Christian tradition. These scientists premised the scientific endeavor upon their belief that there was a God, that this God is a rational being, that thus this rational God had created a rational creation and that therefore, the creation functions upon certain established laws which ensure a continuum which allows us to explore, observe and reproduce experiments—they believed in the heuristic God. Sans such rational consistency; one scientist would observe ice melting into water and another would observe ice melting into a dyslexic chinchilla.

The main point here is that those great scientists who established the methods and fields of science were intelligently designing a manner by which to explore God’s creation—the physical world, nature, the material realm—they believed that God created the material realm and thus, that therein there functions a system of material causes bringing about material effects. Some atheists seem to think that the more we uncover material causes for material effects the more that God becomes a superfluous concept. This may be a good defeater for certain theologies.
Yet, speaking from a Judeo-Christian perspective: material causes for material effects are only expected. This is a scientific prediction made within the Bible itself as God created the material realm, created time in which it functions and ceased from His creation activities (this was a biblical prediction of the first law of thermodynamics) so that it may function as tuned.

To reiterate: it is not surprising to theists and not deleterious to theism when scientists discover material causes bringing about material effects. Yet, this is too generalized as there certainly are theologies which claim that god(s) do things such as directly and constantly causing natural phenomenon such as a lightning god/dess, rain god/dess, wind god/dess, etc.

Thus, various theologies of these sorts may actually be discredited through scientific methods. However, others may not. For example, Judeo-Christian theology specifically denies that God is busy causing each and every natural phenomenon. It may claim that God is ultimately responsible for the whole of creation and may even act during specific events to cause certain supernatural phenomenon to occur but that God established the natural phenomenon and yet is not part of them; does not have to constantly cause them to occur (for example, the Bible describes the hydrological cycle[2]).

In fact, the Bible presents an interesting anti-pantheistic example:

Then He said [to Elijah], “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD.”
And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD,
but the LORD was not in the wind;
and after the wind an earthquake,
but the LORD was not in the earthquake;
and after the earthquake a fire,
but the LORD was not in the fire;
and after the fire a still small voice (1st Kings 19:11-12).

In any regard, let us clearly note that science is about exploring and understanding the material realm; it considers the one corner of reality to which it has access. Science is specifically restricted from even considering the vast majority of what is claimed to be supernatural. Now, since science is relatively very young it may evolve to the point where it can, for instance, develop the ability to detect the signs of design.

Scott C. Todd, Department of Biology, Kansas State University wrote,

Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.

The reason that this sentiment is fallacious is because it amounts to worldview adherence. If all the data point to an intelligent designer, science would thus change in order to accommodate the new evidence. Excluding evidence because it does not fit the theory is unscientific (Todd’s fuller statement is dissected in Omni-Science).

Atheists who claim to base their particular worldviews on science are tantamount to horses wearing blinders (aka blinkers or winkers). Blinders allow some vision but restrict the ascertaining of the complete view: they allow vision directly ahead of the horse but restrict the side and backwards view.
Science is the atheist’s blinders since through it they do get a reasonably clear view of that which is directly in front of them, but they simply cannot see anything else and thus, they conclude that there is nothing else.

The more we hear atheists claim that they base their atheism on science the more we are being alerted to the fact that what they are really admitting is that they are purposefully restricting that which they consider acceptable to consider. This is the very opposite of freethough; this is restricted well-within-the-box-group-think adherence.
They are purposefully restricting their vision and then concluding that there is nothing more to see.

Brian Cox, prominent scientist with the University of Manchester’s Particle Physics Group notes,

Scientists should be able to draw a line between things we do and don't know – they should be comfortable in doing that. We can't rule anything out as being impossible, including the existence of God or a greater being.[3]

With regards to Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem it follows that science cannot fully comprehend nature in terms of nature—such knowledge cannot be self-referencing.

Generally stated atheists of the science=atheism or atheism=science school would claim that they accept only that which is scientifically verifiable.
The very first question to ask is whether this premise is scientifically verifiable. Moreover, has it been scientifically verified that scientific verification is the only true method by which to discern reality? Is it the only way to know what we ought to accept?
If it has not, and it has not, the premise is faulty and the statement disproves itself and must be discarded.

The next question to ask is if, indeed, absolute materialism has been scientifically evidenced.
If it has not, and it has not, then the atheist co-option of science as somehow pointing to atheism is faulty, the statement disproves itself, and must be discarded.

You want to say something like, “Maybe not—but it is the best.” That is fine, but science is the best only at doing what it was intelligently designed to do—within parameters, no further and nothing more.

Again, consider the sentiment of accepting only that which is scientifically verifiable—since the only things that science verifies are material then such a view guarantees, a priori, a materialistic conclusion. Yet, science has no way of determining that there is nothing beyond the material, at least not at this level in its development.

Atheists who take this view are purposefully blinding themselves by accepting one narrow view of reality. They are purposefully taking a view that was specifically designed to make materialistic observations and come to materialistic conclusions about the material. Then they are telling themselves something that science does not tell them and that is that the material is all that there is—something which is not scientifically verifiable.

This is tantamount to putting on eyeglasses with red tint, looking around and concluding that the only color that exists is various shades of red. Someone may challenge such a conclusion by pointing out that there are other colors. They may urge the red bespectacled to take off the glasses and have a look around. Yet, the bespectacled simply states that the red glasses are the best way to look around the world and there is no reason to take them off. Yet, the bottom line is that they are only seeing red because they purposefully put on red glasses and refute to look through any other color.

Atheist of the rosy colored sort are purposefully staring at one little corner of reality, telling themselves that the little corner is all that there is, and refusing to turn around to see the full glory of creation.

Thus, they end up defining science as strictly materialistic; not merely in its methods but in its conclusions—conclusion which they mistakenly take to be absolute (tentative in its details but absolute in its materialism).[4]

[1] Stephen C. Meyer comments on this issue thusly (from Signature in the Cell; DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, beginning at p. 400):
“scientists in different fields use different methods…historical and structural geology use distinct (if partially overlapping) methods…
Some sciences test their theories by making predictions; some test their theories by assessing their explanatory power; some test their theories by assessing both explanatory power and predictive success.
Some methods of scientific investigation involve direct verification; some employ more indirect methods of testing.
Some test theories in isolation from competing hypotheses.
Some test theories by comparing the predictive or explanatory success of competing hypotheses.
Some branches of science formulate conjectures that cannot yet be tested at all.
Some sciences study only what can be observed.
Some sciences make inferences about entities that cannot be observed.
Some sciences reason deductively; some inductively; some abductively.
Some use all three modes of inference.
Some sciences use the hypothetico-deductive method of testing.
Some use the method of multiple competing hypotheses.”
[2] See Job 36:27-29; Psalm 135:7; Jeremiah 10:13
[3] Douglas Walker And Peter Hutchison, “In the beginning there was God AND the Big Bang (well, maybe, says top scientist),” The Scotsman, 10 April 2007
[4] Consider the observations of Richard Lewontin (Harvard University Professor of zoology and biology) as he observes that scientists have purposefully concocted an apparatus that will produce the results that they desire:

Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural…we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [emphasis added]

Richard Lewontin further points out the following with regards to Carl Sagan:

…he believes that “a proclivity for science is embedded deeply within us in all times, places and cultures”…He does not tell us how he used the scientific method to discover the “embedded” human proclivity for science, or the cause of its frustration. Perhaps we ought to add to the menu of Saganic demonology, just after spoon-bending, ten-second seat-of-the-pants explanations of social realities…Sagan believes that scientists reject sprites, fairies, and the influence of Sagittarius because we follow a set of procedures, the Scientific Method, which has consistently produced explanations that put us in contact with reality and in which mystic forces play no part…if the exhortation is to succeed, then the argument for the superiority of science and its method must be convincing, and not merely convincing, but must accord with its own demands. The case for the scientific method should itself be “scientific” and not merely rhetorical. Unfortunately, the argument may not look as good to the unconvinced as it does to the believer. [emphasis added]

He references Carl Sagan and his Saganic demonology due to the fact that these comments were made within his review of Sagan’s book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (read the full text here and see elucidations here).

  • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 2 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Massimo Pigliucci
  • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 3 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Richard Dawkins
Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 2 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Massimo Pigliucci ›
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Interesting Facts the American Humanist Association (AHA) Mi (not verified) — Tue, 05/10/2011 - 5:23am

[...] their thinking by appealing to “science” see Atheism and Science – Is There a Relation? part 1, part 2, part [...]

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Atheism and Science

Anonymous (not verified) — Thu, 06/17/2010 - 7:21pm

Science is not just a few hundred years old or based in Judeo-Christian nonsense. The Romans and Greeks as well as the Babylonians and the Chinese all had conceptions of science and mathematics, and all of these societies were pagan in nature. In fact, the word science comes from the Latin verb for knowing something. Then everything, as we know, got all buggered up in the West with the fall of Rome (not long after Christianity became big) and Europe was plunged into the Dark Ages where most knowledge was lost and Christianity reigned supreme.

Fortunately, Medieval Islam was around to preserve all of the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans and added to this knowledge considerably. While Europe was being taken over by Christianity and forgetting near everything the Greeks and Romans had ever learned about medicine, math or astrology, Muslims were making tremendous advances scientifically and became one of the dominant superpowers in the world.

Fortunately for Europe, the Muslims had all of this knowledge preserved in multiple libraries across their grand empire, and when Westerners managed to chase the Muslims out of Spain they found one of these libraries and suddenly Europe had access to scientific knowledge again.

A little while later, after the Renaissance, we had the Enlightenment, followed shortly by the Industrial Revolution. During the Enlightenment, Europe (re-)discovered the scientific principles of rationalism, observation and empiricism, and put them to the test during the Industrial Revolution. The tremendous advances we have made in technology over the past short few years are all owed entirely to this.

During the Enlightenment, it was often the Religious Establishment versus some scientist or scientists who had figured out that things didn't really work that way. Like the fact that the Universe does not revolve around the Earth. Or the fact that life doesn't just spontaneously generate. We killed all of the dragons, unicorns and demons around this time too. Unfortunately, Christianity had taken hold in a number of places in a number of different ways simply because it afforded a certain class of people easy access to control over the masses, and couldn't be stopped because governments found it too convenient to have their own religious organizations start issuing edicts from God whenever things got hairy.

Around this time, Atheism first started to make a big comeback as a lot of people began to realize how wrong the religious establishment was about how the world works. Repeatedly, scientists were harassed, imprisoned or executed for disagreeing with the religious establishment, and eventually a group of people realized that religious dogma was a dangerous threat to learning about the world.

These people eventually started calling themselves "Freethinkers", as they were free from religious pre-conceptions about the world, and even started publishing a magazine called, "The Freethinker" which promoted science over religious fundamentalism.

Atheism has no preconceived dogmas. In fact, as babies are not born believing in God or having any religious beliefs until they are educated on such matters by their parents, it would seem that the default position for any person is to be an atheist. Atheism, without any preconceived is not a threat to the accumulation of scientific knowledge. Many atheists have the same questions about the nature of the universe as theists, but without a religion, the only way to get such information is from science.

Science can only deal with the natural observable world not because scientists are deliberately blind, but because that's the only thing that the scientific method works on. If scientists could perform experiments on God or the Supernatural, there would be a widely-recognized branch of science called "Supernatural-ology" or "God-ology" or something like that. But we cannot perform experiments on the supernatural and as time has gone on, a lot of things we used to think were supernatural became understood to be perfectly natural and increasingly it became apparent that we could ignore the supernatural entirely and scientific progress would be completely unaffected.

The material world has been scientifically proven to exist. We can measure, we can feel it, and we can manipulate it, and seeing as we all seem to be experiencing more or less the same objective reality at least in our own subjective ways, this material reality is pretty much all we have to work with. While some hidden supernatural reality or authority has not been proven not to exist, it hasn't been proven to exist. As it is difficult, if not impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, many reasonable people think that it is a-okay if you only work with stuff that has been proven to exist, so you don't waste your time thinking about things that might not exist, like God or any other supernatural gibberish.

The trouble is that a belief in God requires the a priori conclusion that God exists, while a lack of belief in God requires no such a priori conclusion. Someone who is never exposed to religion hasn't made any conclusions about God because the concept doesn't exist to them, not because they know God exists and reject this information.

The trouble with Intelligent Design is that not only is it a hypothesis we cannot meaningfully test, if it were the dominant scientific paradigm it would raise more problems than it would solve. Supposing there is a designer, the question now becomes, "Where the hell is this designer?" and we'd have to hunt down the guy. Then when we found this designer, we'd have to ask him how he was created in the first place, and if he said a designer, then we'd have to go find that designer and ask him the same question.

So even if you suppose that God created all life as we know it, then we have to ask, "Okay, well what created God?" and as we cannot prove that God exists in the first place, and God's existence would raise far more questions than it would answer, it seems better to just ignore this question and stick with something observable, like evolution.

The other big problem with Intelligent Design is that not only is there absolutely no evidence for the theory, but it doesn't explain things as thoroughly or as well as evolution does. Evolution is one robust fucking theory, and after one-hundred and fifty years of extensive study and criticism of the theory, that's still the best answer we have for most of the questions we have about biology. Even Richard Lewontin, your new favorite quote-mine, whom you seem to continually forget is in fact an evolutionary biologist and supports the theory even if he is critical of other scientists would agree with me on this point. In fact, Richard Lewontin is largely critical of other scientists when he feels that they have overstepped their bounds and have begun to talk about things decidedly unscientific.

Mariano, you're always just as guilty if not more so of anything you claim that atheists do. If atheists are blind for not being Christians, then Christians and Atheists are both blind to being Hindu or Shintoists or any other religion. There are 40,000 religions on the planet, and while you cheat and claim two of them, you still are an atheist in regards to the other 39,998 religions in the world.

Furthermore Mariano, you're a fundamentalist who is absolutely convinced, a priori, without evidence, that an invisible force created everything in the universe and you attack all evidence that suggests anything to the contrary. You're not a freethinker, you're just another fundamentalist lunatic who doesn't know what he's talking about.

  • reply

Great content again Mariano,

Connor R. (not verified) — Thu, 06/17/2010 - 3:28pm

Great content again Mariano, I look forward to your next post! I can't tell you how many times I've seen this position taken by atheists.

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Similar

  • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 3 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Richard Dawkins
  • Atheism and Science - Is There a Relation?, part 2 - On the Difference Between Science and Philosophy: Massimo Pigliucci
  • Atheist and Darwinian Science and Story Telling, part 1 of 9
  • Isaac Asimov on “Tell me why”?
  • Isaac Asimov on “Tell me why”?

Recommended links

  • Dan Brown and The Lost Symbol
  • Arguments That Atheists Should Not Use
  • Find it Fast - Fast Facts: on how atheists conclude that there is no scientific evidence for God
  • Atheists claim that “the Old Testament still applies”
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