Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link
Atheism and Creation Ministries International, part 9
“believing something does not exist
implies that entity actually does exist” —the Arizona Atheist
The Arizona Atheist wrote a comment to the essay itself and subsequently went on to post further comments on his blog. The comment to the essay was as follows:
I must say this article is one of the most ignorant pieces of propaganda I’ve read in a while…To point out just one in countless errors, the author completely failed to show the link between atheism and communism. The author clearly doesn’t understand either, or else he wouldn’t have made such a huge error.But you all go ahead and accept this hugely error ridden propaganda piece because the facts are what they are, despite the apologetic hype.
Please note the opening caveat at the beginning of the section:
“With regards to the correlation between atheism and Communism; it would be fallaciously simplistic to claim that atheism is the only motivating factor behind Communism and yet, it is certainly a major factor and the very premise upon which Communist ideology was built.”
Taking that caveat into account and considering the testimony from so many of the major players in communism of the importance of atheism to their political agenda, I fail to see how you could claim that: “… the author completely failed to show the link between atheism and communism”.It seems that you did not actually read the section you criticize. If you did actually read it, considering how much evidence the author produced, I don’t see how you could ever be convinced of the connection, which is patently clear.
Hereafter the Arizona Atheist posted to his blog stating, “Despite christian apologists' desperate attempts to connect atheism to communism [referring to this www.creation.com/atheism#atheism-communism], not one person has been successful, even a Ph.D. in Russian History.”He then introduces me as “the absurd Atheism is Dead [True Freethinker's predecessor] blogger Mariano” and swiftly disregards the caveat which was pointed out to him,
I do not care if the author didn't intend to solely blame atheism; that's not the point. The point is that it wasn't a factor at all, and the author damn sure didn't give any facts to back that up.
Well, he may have a point as within the essay’s section entitled "Atheism and Communism" (www.creation.com/atheism#atheism-communism) I only quoted Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Vladimir Lenin, Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Emilian Yaroslavsky, Frederick Engles, Time Magazine, the Marxist Robert M. Young, the Troskyite Denzil Dean Harber (aka Paul Dixon), Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, et al. (also see Atheist and Darwinist Communists).
Well, it is not that I did not “give any facts to back that up” but that the Arizona Atheist is the sort of atheist that seeks to re-write history in order to protect atheism from even the appearance of not being perfectly pure and blameless. The bottom line that that atheists such as the Arizona Atheist engage upon a very odd and self-servingly convenient sort of “logic” which runs thusly:
1) Atheist Communists stated that they were establishing their various Communist regimes upon atheism.
2) Such atheists are to be excommunicated from atheism.
3) This is because such atheists were acting more like “religious” people than like atheists (as if there was some sort of standard for atheists).
4) Therefore, “religion” is to be blamed for the atrocities committed by atheist Communists who stated that they were establishing their various Communist regimes upon atheism in the most secular and bloodies century in human history.
Moreover, he complains that when the atheist Communists make reference to materialism, Darwinism, evolution, etc. they cannot be said to be making reference to atheism because they are not synonymous. However, since when they make such references they provide their own context which defines how they meant the terms to be understood. Thus, it is readily discernable that in their minds they were synonymous then they are to be taken as such.
To reiterate: it is no argument to claim that in general terms materialism, Darwinism, evolution, etc. are not synonymous with atheism when the specific personages to which we are referring did consider them synonymous within their own context.
This really is enough to discredit the Arizona Atheist’s every criticism. Yet, as he goes on to write; more and more desperate attempts to sever the direct link between atheism and Communism are made, his attempts become more and more desperate and his “logic” falls away into well-within-the-box-atheist-group-think. He actually makes the valiant effort to consider the fact that I provided evidence to back up my caveated contention even whilst failing to see that his criticism of each one is answered within the quotes themselves. Thus, let us be extra fair and consider this issue in more detail.
Since all of the quotes are within my essay and the Arizona Atheist reproduces them all I will only quote his statements and the relevant portion of the quotation from the Communist atheist which answers his statement to begin with.
In responding to a statement by Karl Marx, he writes, “Now, just how is atheism related to evolution?”
Well, if he really has not been paying attention for the past century and a half all he has to do is read Richard Dawkins’ new book (see here, here, here and here). Note that Marx’s statement explains how Marx considered atheism to be related to evolution and Communism, “Darwin’s book of Natural Selection…contains the basis in natural history for our view…a basis in natural science for the class struggle in history.” Do you see the problem (for the Arizona Atheist)? Since Marx was an atheist, Darwinism provided the basis upon which to understand natural history and so he applied this concept to class struggle. Thus, he related atheism to evolution.To a Leon Trotsky quote and a Vladimir Lenin quote he writes, “Again, materialism is not synonymous with atheism! They are not the same thing!” Here is the ongoing problem (for the Arizona Atheist); he generically denies that materialism is synonymous with atheism (without evidence) but that is simply irrelevant since when Leon Trotsky wrote of materialism he himself defined what he himself meant by it, he himself defined his own terms as he himself wrote, “We call our dialectic, materialist, since its roots are neither in heaven nor in the depths of our ‘free will’, but in objective reality, in nature.” Thus, according to Trotsky’s own context and definition of what he meant when he used the term; materialism is rooted in nature and specifically denies heavenly roots.
Vladimir Lenin wrote, “Social-Democracy bases its whole world-outlook on scientific socialism, i.e., Marxism” and Marxism relied on the God-free theory of Darwinian Natural Selection. Lenin goes on to state that “The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism…a materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion.”
Lenin also notes that Frederick Engels wrote an “an indictment of the materialist and atheist Dühring for not being a consistent materialist and for leaving loopholes for religion and religious philosophy” emphasizing that “Marxism is materialism” which was viewed as rooted in nature and specifically denied heavenly roots.
To re-reiterate, that in general “materialism is not synonymous with atheism!” is irrelevant to the fact that according to the context and definition of these atheists Communists it is. In fact, Lenin went on to note that the Materialistic/Darwinian/Atheistic Marxism upon which Communism was premised is “relentlessly hostile to religion” and “it applies the materialist philosophy.”
In responding to another quote from Lenin the Arizona Atheists writes, “As I've explained elsewhere, the reason the Communists persecuted religious believers (though they were by far not the only group targeted) was because of their Communist ideology.”
This is quite right; atheists Communists persecuted religious believers because of their Communist ideology. But do you see the problem (for the Arizona Atheist)? Atheists Communists persecuted religious believers because of their Communist ideology: which was premised upon atheism. What Lenin had stated is that “Engels frequently condemned the efforts of people who desired … to introduce into the programme of the workers’ party an explicit proclamation of atheism, in the sense of declaring war on religion” because this would merely “revive interest in religion and to prevent it from really dying out.”
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