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Sample clip of my debate with an
atheist on the issue of morality.
Find the whole debate at this link
The Argument for Atheism from Immaturity
Some atheists seem to think that simply pronouncing anything non-material to be childish is refutation of the non-material (this would, apparently, include their own thoughts). Now, since I qualified the statement with “Some” and “seem” it may not be a good idea to comment, “I do not…” since I reference those who do.
An anecdote with which to begin:
An atheist wrote to me and proclaimed some form of victory in stating that his young son had asked his Sunday School teacher how the carnivores did not eat the other animals on Noah’s ark (I do not know if the son of the atheist attends Sunday School due to a mixed marriage, cultural conventions or what have you).
Reportedly, the teacher turned red and changed the subject.
It is one thing for a child to make a childish statement based on childish reasoning and be satisfied. It is quite another for an adult to reward such childish notions and then go on to proudly promulgating them.
I simply asked this atheist if his son also asked the teacher how the local zoo keeps the carnivores from eating the other animals and that was the end of the discussion as I received no response.
It is widely known that some atheists rejected God in their childhood, based on child like reasons, have not matured beyond these childish notions and thus, maintain childish-emotional reactions toward the idea of God (many actually confuse rejection of “religion” with rejection of God. And again, I said “some”).
This fact rears itself by references to the Bible as “a magic book” or “fairy-tales,” Jesus’ miracles as “magical powers,” and God as an “imaginary friend,” “sky daddy” or “super friends” who is likened to “fairies,” “gnomes” and even “the Invisible Pink Unicorns” and “the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”
Evidence of these facts is ubiquitous; here are two such examples:
Lewis Wolpert - Still a Child at Heart
No doubt that this tickles those who already agree but to the rest of us it is all too reminiscent of playground bullying and role playing with superheroes. What next, will they triple-dog-dare theists to debate? Not bloody likely as yet again, the most intelligent, well informed and vociferous atheist in the world cower from debate.
As noted in the essay The New (Emergent) Atheists, part 2 of 4 the New Atheist movement, in particular, is peppered with immaturity. Immaturity is amusing; inciting the poking of fun and ridiculing as replacements of reasoned discourse.
Here is another example from Rita De Alverez’s book The Long Journey of My De-Conversion:
The beginning of my de-conversion was not about doubting the existence of God. It began when He became irrelevant. What kind of deity allows, out of impotence or apathy, innocents to needlessly suffer? There is no excuse. Such a god is unworthy of affection or loyalty. Nor could I expect this deity to protect me and my child from the evils that he allowed to befall others more virtuous than myself. Like letting go of a cherished baby blanket, a hopeless romance or finally leaving home for good, one gets to this point only when one is ready. One has “God” as long as one needs a god. I know many never reach this conclusion. I did and it’s as simple as that.
Firstly, we should most certainly be empathetic to the concern about suffering. Most important in considering such concerns is that on this topic there are, at least, two main issues: the logical problem of suffering and the emotional problem of suffering. One could provide a logically airtight refutation of the problem of evil but the suffering person will surely compare the abstract argumentation against the tangible suffering which they are emotionally felling. See the problem? Argument versus sensation.
Yet and ultimately, the the problem of evil is a logical and theological issue and must be dealt with as such. When someone is suffering you do not philosophize but rather, empathize, listen to them, comfort them and then, maybe, get around to logic at some future point.
Since I dealt with this issue in detail in the essay Quentin Smith - The Gratuitous Fallacy I will merely point out that 1) she does not know that the suffering is needless and 2) as to what kind of deity allows it; a deity who knows better that do we.
Is there “no excuse”? The logical resolution of the problem of evil asserts that there is not just an excuse but a reason. If God has a reason for allowing evil/suffering then the logical problem of evil is defeated. Moreover, this could be one single reason, could be a reason of which we are not aware, could be one with which we would disagree. Our opinion as to the reason is irrelevant as I may be said to have been evil to stand by and do nothing when my son suffered while someone stabbed him until I point out that he was a newborn and the nurse stabbed him with a needle in order to check his blood sugar. On the surface, I allowed suffering even whilst possessing the power to stop it. Yet, on the deeper level I had a reason and knew that momentary suffering would amount to an assurance of health. Thus, Such a god is not unworthy of affection or loyalty as such a God knows better and has a reason.
What we also see in Rita De Alverez is a claim from authority as an ex-Christian but one who rejected not biblical/Christian theology but rejected a straw-man, a straw-God. She states that her “cherished baby blanket” was that God would protect her and her child from evils. Yet, the Bible assures us that “in this world you will have trouble” (John 16:33) so that when we have trouble we are not shocked that we are having trouble.
Ultimately, being a strictly dogmatheistic theologian, as are all atheists, she considered the world around her, concocted a theology which demanded that if God is then God would…and since God does not…then God is not and thus, rejected a god of her own making and it’s as simple as that (see Fundamentalist Theologian Asks: “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” and “Why Does God Hate Amputees?” and Atheism’s arguments against theism, or Atheism’s “atheology”).
Now, again, being emotionally empathetic to a real person’s real concerns we must, nonetheless, consider the logic in noting that her invented god was utilitarian—god existed to serve her. You may recall that in the essay ITS NAME IS DOOM I quoted Martin Buber on the “deactualized self” in which he noted that when “The capricious man…says You, he means: You, my ability to use!”[1] Likewise, when Rita De Alverez says God, she means, God, my right to wish fulfillment. Imagine looking at a person who has a mirror strapped around their head and you will get the picture; you would see other people only as reflections of yourself, as utilities from which to get that which you desire.
So, now Rita De Alverez has rejected God. Now what? Is the suffering gone? Will no harm come to her? Has anything changed at all? No. Suffering and harm continue to plague her and now, she does not even have God to blame anymore.
But now there is an odd sort of comfort in accepting the un-evidenced dogmatheistic assertion that there is no God and that since the universe is cold and uncaring we can only expect that “in this world you will have trouble.”
As Dan Barker so aptly stated it, “There is no moral interpreter in the cosmos, nothing cares and nobody cares...what happens to me or a piece of broccoli, it won’t [matter]. The Sun is going to explode, we’re all gonna be gone. No one’s gonna care” (see here).
In closing, I wonder how, in a cold and uncaring universe, she defines “evil” or “suffering”? Surely, based upon personal preferences which are premised upon personal preferences. Yet, since we know for a fact that suffering, such as the poking of a needle, can be a very, very good and moral thing—how do we then condemn suffering in general as being arbitrary, meaningless, gratuitous, etc.?
You see, Jacob could tell his brothers who sold him into slavery, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Genesis 50:20).
In affirming that “in this world you will have trouble…” the ultimate—ultimate I say—atheist answer is “…and then you die.” The ultimate answer of Jesus is “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28).
Atheism makes evil and suffering even worse by 1) not ultimately doing anything about it, 2) guaranteeing that it has no ultimate purpose or meaning, 3) not being able to redeem it, 4) making it for the benefit of the evildoer who enjoys themselves and ultimately gets away with it and thus, 5) ensuring that there is not ultimate accountability or justice.
The fact of evil and suffering in the world is one of the very best reasons for rejecting atheism.
[1] Martin Buber (Walter Kaufmann, trans.), I and Thou (New York: Scribner’s, 1970), p. 111
This essay is copyrighted by Mariano Grinbank of the website "True Free Thinker" at www.truefreethinker.com.
It may be republished in part or in its entirety on websites, blogs, or any print media for whatever purpose (in agreement or in order to criticize it) only as long as the following conditions are met:
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My post above was also
Dr. Mabuse (not verified) — Thu, 07/01/2010 - 3:19amMy post above was also cross-posted at:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13312
Re: The Argument for Atheism from Immaturity
Dr. Mabuse (not verified) — Thu, 07/01/2010 - 3:16amAtheism makes evil and suffering even worse by 1) not ultimately doing anything about it,
The same is true about Christianity. By itself, it doesn't. Just like any philosophy, it's up to the practitioner of the philosophy do do something. For atheists, the Golden Rule is important, and while Christians can sit on their hands and wait for Kingdom Come, Atheists have to actively try to make the world a better place before he dies.
2) guaranteeing that it has no ultimate purpose or meaning,
It hasn't. But who decided that life really has to have an ultimate true-for-everyone purpose or meaning? If you are insecure in yourself, then I understand that it would feel comfortable to have someone tell you what to think. As an Agnostic, I have the option and the freedom to decide for myself what meaning I will assign to my life.
3) not being able to redeem it
See point 1.
4) making it for the benefit of the evildoer who enjoys themselves and ultimately gets away with it and thus, 5) ensuring that there is not ultimate accountability or justice.
There must be a language barrier keeping me from understanding what you are trying to say. Atheism by itself doesn't do evil things. People do. And other people do hold each other accountable for evil things that is done to one another. That's why we have a legal system. Granted it's not perfect, but what human endeavor has ever been?
The fact of evil and suffering in the world is one of the very best reasons for rejecting atheism.
More than 90% of all people on earth are religious, which means that more than 90% of all evil-doers are religious. That is good reason for rejecting theism.
1. Christianity teaches to
Anonymous — Tue, 11/16/2010 - 1:47pm1. Christianity teaches to love one's neighbour. No matter how ugly, smelly, loathsome and offensive he or she is. That already gives people a hang up when attempting to do something bad to someone OVER AND ABOVE any expectation of treating people well to be treated well in return.
Most Christians do not sit on their hands BTW. They give time and money to charitable causes for example. I've often found myself in situations I could cheat and get away with it. I could short change others. I didn't. Why? Not because I was afraid I'd be found out. Nope. I wouldn't be. Never. I was better at what I did than others around me and even short changing would be more benevolent than honest work by others. Not because God would punish me. Nope. I didn't do it because if God made everyone, even the person I wanted to short change and if God died for that person, that person must be important. It is not my place to degrade that person in any way. If God loves that person so much, the very least I can do is treat them amicably and moreover I can go the extra mile to help them, yes even when they possess atrocious body odour.
2. We all have that. However, when you realise that this rock will be swallowed by the sun one day it all becomes meaningless. We can all and we all do happily build careers, families, have hobbies, write blog posts or books or make documentaries. We teach and so on. We are all capable of that. Being a Christian does not remove from this in any way except where your hobby is built upon the degradation of others. I see nothing in agnoticism and atheism which would stop one from at least occasionally doing something bad to someone else for some greater perceived benefit towards the self or others.
4. The legal system is fine but it can be abused or it can break down. Again there are many ways around legal systems. It is fairly easy, when one has the resources, to bypass any legal system or even worse change it. In times of war or natural disaster, legal systems break down and well-- that hang up is gone. It becomes a free for all and than the person has to decide to follow his conscience or take advantage of the situation when the need or opportunity arises. Again, this is not every atheist or agnostic, but having the moral hangup of a loving God who suffered for us is in addition to any fears of punishment by law or any self perceived altruistic egotism or honour.
Most of the greatest and influential butchers were not believers - not in a sense that they were in any way avowed or afraid of God. By avowed I mean that they weren't charmed by God's sacrifice, love and mercy and afraid - well not afraid of any punishment. People such as Stalin, Lenin, Kaganovic, Beria, Dzierzynski, Himmler, Hitler, Pol Pot, Robespierre etc were atheists or agnostics and these people were the greatest thugs. They killed the most people. In contrast religiously motivated killers were who--? Leaders of the Crusades who were often fighting an opposing invading force and had self motivations which clashed with those of Christ? The Inquisitors who killed fewer people in all history than one Soviet gulag in a year?
Secondly, there are many religious people but like all people, many do not take their religion too seriously. One could say that they do bad things DESPITE their faith, while one can't muster any defense of atheism or agnosticism in this regard because neither of these purport to inherently suggest or command against any wicked deeds by their followers. In fact they subtract the fear of punishment by God and wonder at God's love and reduce people to the moral rank of animals.
Anyway please remember Dr, that believers have more motivations to do good than non-believers. I can put myself in an atheist or an agnostic shoes too. However someone who scoffs at faith will have difficulty in understanding what it's about. Non believers may receive much from believers because our Western civilisation contains many Christian maxims and customs which have become inherently intertwined in our current group psyche but once the inertial mass of Christians is lost to push these ideas you will be left alone with those who may give you another agenda, one which may fool you into supporting another Hitler.
Best Wishes and God Bless You